DNA Proof of Ancesty, Part 3 of 4

DNA PROOF of Ancestry, Part Three

This is part three of four. Please read the first two, followed by this one, and lastly the forth. They all go together. The first two are found here --
http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/controversy-of-fake-indians.html and
http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/cherokee-gestapo.html

and here is the forth -- 
http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/09/there-should-be-better-way.html

First I'd like to share some of my DNA results from gedmatch, as prepaired by someone who has performed literally hundreds of such results:

1. You are South African on chromosomes # 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 16, 17, and 22. [You are significantly South African on chromosomes # 10 at 22M and on # 13 at 18-19M.]
2. You are SouthAmericanIndian on chromosomes # 4, 6, 9, 11, 15, 19, and 21. [ You are significantly SouthAmericanIndian on chromosomes # 4 at 130M and on # 11 at 7M.]
3. You are NorthAmericanIndian on all chromosomes EXCEPT # 18. [You are significantly NorthAmericanIndian on chromosome # 3 at 40M, on # 6 at 114-117M, and on # 16 at 55M.]
4. You are ArcticAmericanIndian on all chromosomes EXCEPT # 14, 16, and 22. [You are significantly ArcticAmericanIndian on chromosome # 1 at 213-214M.]
5. You are MesoAmericanIndian on all chromosomes EXCEPT # 11, 13, 16, 18, 21, and 22. [ You are significantly MesoAmericanIndian on chromosome # 2 at 147M and 150M.]

Those people who interrogated me last week concerning my American Indian ancestry made a point of telling not only that my DNA results weren’t the “Proof” that they are, but that those results were not even “evidence” for it.

They are mistaken. I could have responded off the cuff, but it carries more weight if it comes from an expert in the field.
Each point of EVIDENCE I showed them that wasn’t PROOF, they considered it to also be NOT EVIDENCE, which was wrong – IT WAS EVIDENCE! Had they said it was evidence, just not proof, I would have agreed with them 100%! That is what I have always maintained. But DNA results do NOT lie – These results are proof! These people said not only was it not proof, it wasn’t even evidence! They showed we have American Indian DNA on every chromosome.

I searched the internet and found the following:

www.Gedmatch.com had this page, which had a link here:
https://www.gedmatch.com/DNA_for_Dummies.php
which in turn brought me here:
https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy
whch led me to the page below. I prefer this page to others because it is written so that anyone reading can understand it.

https://sites.google.com/site/wheatonsurname/beginners-guide-to-genetic-genealogy/lesson-7-atdna-ancestral-origins-part-1

atDNA ancestral breakdowns are done via special SNPs called AIMs or Ancestral Indicative Markers. These AIMs are markers that have a great deal of variation and are indicative of a place of origin or group of people. A series of AIM SNPs gives us an indication where someone's genetic material flowed from for a particular segment of DNA. Ancestry and FTDNA also make use of AIMs (each with their own algorithms) so the results may be different from different companies. There are two more players which you should be aware of. The first is GEDMATCH which hosts various different tools for "painting" your chromosomes under the heading "Admixture" and then "Ad-Mix Utilities." The other are offerings from a company called DNA Tribes. Hopefully these will be covered in a future lesson.

The basic premise is the same no matter where you test. These tools attempt to give you a breakdown of your ancestral origins. There are some important limitations and caveats. First, it is necessary to understand that your paper family tree and your DNA are not identical. Huh? Let's see why not. Let's go back to our first lesson and the Visual DNA Chart. Look at our 8 great grandparents across the top. Let us for the sake of discussion have each of these grandparents have a different ancestral origin.

"Great grandpa Blue" (paternal)  = 100% Polish
"Great grandma Yellow" (paternal)  = 100% English Colonial
"Great grandpa Green" (paternal)  = 100% Irish
"Great grandma Pink" (paternal) = 50% Irish 50% English Colonial
"Great grandpa Gray" (maternal)  = 50% African 50% English Colonial
"Great grandma Orange" (maternal)  = 50% Norwegian 50% Swedish
"Great grandpa Light blue" (maternal)  = 50% Native American 50% Portuguese
"Great grandma Salmon" (maternal)  = 100% Chinese

The estimated amount of DNA of the great grandchildren would be about 12.5% from each great grandparent, so our estimate would look like this:

25% English Colonial
18.75% Irish
12.5% Polish
12.5% Chinese
6.25% each of African, Native American, Norwegian, Portuguese, and Swedish

However the DNA we inherit from each great grandparent is not equal and those great grandparents with more than one ancestry may give unequal shares of that ancestry to their children and then their children give more or less to their children and so forth. So in the DNA lottery you may have gotten 13% from your Chinese (salmon) great grandma but your half Native American and half Portuguese (lt blue) great grandpa may have only given you 12% of his DNA and not in equal portions so you may have only retained 3% of the Native American and the other 9% is Portuguese. This does not change who are great grandparents are. Our DNA only reflects what we win from each great grandparent in the DNA lottery. So in reality great grandchildren with the same parents might look like this:

Great grandchild “A”

28% English Colonial
22% Irish
11% Polish
10% Chinese
8% Norwegian
7% Swedish
6% African
4% Portuguese
4% Native American

Great grandchild “B”

24% English Colonial
20% Irish
11% Polish
12% Chinese
6% Norwegian
5% Swedish
8% African
5% Portuguese
1% Native American

Each of these great grandchildren has the same great grandparents but they did not inherit the same DNA. So given this example you can see that by the time great grandchild B passes their DNA to their children some may not reflect any discernible Native American. Another particular problem with Native American AIMs is that they have some of the same ancient origins as Far East DNA so sometimes a program is unable to know which is which and may report Native American as Asian or visa versa. Similar problems creep in with heavily admixed (mixed origin) countries or ethnicity.

In the beginning there were often only a few major categories represented by AIMs: European, Asian and African. As time goes on these categories get more specific: Northern European versus Southern European or North African versus Central Africa versus East Africa versus West Africa. In some cases algorithms have trouble discerning the difference between Scandinavian and British (such is the case with the current breakdowns at ANCESTRY). So all ancestral origins in their current state are estimates of your background based on your AIMs. Since these represent an even smaller subset of your total genome you need to use these as indicators rather than hard and fast percentages.
ANCESTRY
Ancestry now provides the most extensive ancestral breakdown in its new Genetic Ethnic Estimate. I suggest looking at the links under additional resources for a more thorough exploration. Each of the screenshots posted here can be clicked on for a larger view. The first page gives an overall view.
There are two more more Ancestral Origins tools. They are GEDMATCH's Admixture tool, and products from DNA Tribes geographical analysis. An excellent Blog post 2015 by TL Dixon on combining Admixture with Chromosome painting here . 

http://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/2015/05/ethnicity-chromosome-mapping.html

http://www.rootsandrecombinantdna.com/p/what-are-your-favorite-links-tools.html

After I shared this information from that website, a member of this group thought he needed to tell me how “blood quantum” worked. However this website was talking about DNA we inherit from out ancestors, which is not “blood quantum. He said (below);  “Vance, this is how BQ works. Great grandpa blue is full polish. Great grandma yellow is full English. They will produce Grandparent A who is 1/2 Polish and 1/2 English. Great grandpa green is full Irish and great grandma pink is 1/2 Irish and 1/2 English. They will produce Grandparent B who is 3/4 Irish and 1/4 English. These grandparents will produce parent A who is 1/4 Polish, 3/8 Irish and 3/8 English.

“Great grandpa gray is 1/2 African and 1/2 English. Great grandma Orange is 1/2 Norwegian and 1/2 Swedish. They will produce grand parent C who is 1/4 African, 1/4 English, 1/4 Norwegian, and 1/4 Swedish. Great Grandpa light Blue is 1/2 Native American and 1/2 Portuguese. Great grandma Salmon is full Chinese. They will produce grandparent D who is 1/4 Native American, 1/4 Portuguese, and 1/2 Chinese. These grandparents will produce parent B who would be 1/4 Chinese, 1/8 Native American, 1/8 Portuguese, 1/8 African, 1/8 English, 1/8 Norwegian, 1/8 Swedish.
“The children of parent A and Parent B will be 1/4 English, 1/8 Chinese, 3/16 Irish, 1/8 Polish, 1/16 Native American, 1/16 Portuguese, 1/16 African, 1/16 Norwegian, and 1/16 Swedish.

“With every person's DNA by a random amount of each parent's DNA and considering that a few of the countries you listed are also countries that also have the markers that are among those considered to be Native American, it is possible for a child of the parent to DNA test with greater than the Native American great grandparent. It is also for a possible for a child to test with no Native American DNA. It depends on the luck of the draw what DNA the people get.”

Here is my response. It is expected that percentage of DNA will vary from values based on “blood quantum" as you describe it. The two will vary at a predictable rate. Thus anyone expecting an exact DNA match, I. e. -- 25%, 12.5%, 3.125% et cetera – will be greatly disappointed. We obtain "about half" of our "X" chromosomal DNA from each parent. However in reality we might get 60% from one parent and 40% from the other. This will occur within the boundary of known parameters based on probability theory and the variance found in found in the data. This is a measure of the difference between experimental results, and the results one might expect. In theory, we expect 1/2, 1/4th, 1/8th, et cetera. But in practice, those values are only approximately reliable.

We don't always inherit the same percentage of DNA that we should from each ancestor. Females get 2 pairs of "x" chromosomes whereas males get 1 "x" and 1 "y". Males get the "y" chromosome and accompanying DNA exclusively from the father. For me, that leaves only the single "x" chromosome. And the same was true for my father. So I have 1/4th of the "x" chromosomes" of a female daughter of a female of the same generation. Through the "x" chromosome, we inherit approximately half of our genes from our mother and half from the father. So it would be rare that we would inherit EXACTLY 25% of our "x" chromosomes from a grandparent -- it will vary more than we might think from the expected value. 

Yes there are some DNA strands that are similar throughout all races and nations. But geneticists know which ones those are. They are not the ones used in these tests. American Indians share more with Siberians than with others, and this is made proven by these results. Every year these tests get better and better. With each passing year the genetic testing gets more accurate than the previous year, as more data pours in. By getting only 1 set of "x" chromosomes males variance should be > females on the average, but knowing the variance will compensate for that. differential.

About State Recognition

Here is how the state of Tennessee sees recognition:

STATE   OF   TENNESSEE OFFICE OF THE ATTORNEY GENERAL PO BOX 20207 NASHVILLE, TENNESSEE 37202
February 27, 2007
Opinion No. 07-21
State of Tennessee’s Authority to Recognize Indian Tribes
QUESTION
Does the State of Tennessee have authority to recognize Indian tribes, or is that authority solely held by the federal government?
OPINION
The State of Tennessee has authority to recognize Indian tribes.
ANALYSIS
In 2003, the Legislature reestablished the Tennessee Commission of Indian Affairs (Commission).  As part of its powers and duties, the Commission must “[e]stablish appropriate procedures to provide for legal recognition by the state of presently unrecognized tribes, nations, groups, communities or individuals, and to provide for official state recognition by the commission of such.”  Tenn. Code Ann. § 4-34-103(6) (2003).  In 2006, the Commission initiated rulemaking to establish Tennessee’s recognition criteria and procedure.  
The United States Constitution grants Congress the authority “[t]o regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes.”  U.S. Const. art. I, § 8, cl. 3.  This provision encompasses what is commonly known as the “Indian Commerce Clause.” While the United States Supreme Court has described Congress’ power under the Indian Commerce Clause as “plenary and exclusive,” United States v. Lara, 541 U.S. 193, 200, 202, 124 S.Ct. 1628, 158 L.Ed.2d 420 (2004); Washington v. Confederated Bands and Tribes of Yakima Nation, 439 U.S. 463, 470-1, 99 S.Ct. 740, 58 L.Ed.2d 740 (1978), the Court has also said that the States retain some limited authority over Indian commerce and Indian tribes.   See Seminole Tribe of Florida v. Florida, 517 U.S. 44, 62, 116 S.Ct. 1114, 134 L.Ed. 252 (1996).  As the Court explained in Seminole Tribe of Florida: 
[O]ur inquiry is limited to determining whether the Indian Commerce Clause, like the Interstate Commerce Clause, is a grant of authority to the Federal Government at the expense of the States. The answer to that question is obvious. If anything, the Indian Commerce Clause accomplishes a greater transfer of power from the States to the Federal Government than does the Interstate Commerce Clause. This is clear
Page 2
enough from the fact that the States still exercise some authority over interstate trade but have been divested of virtually all authority over Indian commerce and Indian tribes.   
Id. at 62 (emphasis added).  The federal government’s authority over Indian tribes is undeniably broad but it is not absolute or all-encompassing.  The federal government has not divested states of their power to recognize Indian tribes.
Congress has acknowledged that state governments have the authority to recognize Indian tribes.  Congress created a cause of action for the misrepresentation of goods as Indian produced and defined “Indian tribes” to include “any Indian group that has been formally recognized as an Indian tribe by a State legislature or by a State commission or similar organization legislatively vested with State tribal recognition authority”  25 U.S.C.A. § 305e(d) (2000).  Tennessee’s General Assembly provided the Commission with the authority to recognize tribes under Tenn. Code Ann. § 4-34103(6).  A tribe recognized by the State of Tennessee would be able to bring a lawsuit against a person for offering a good in a manner that falsely suggests it is Indian produced pursuant to 25 U.S.C.A. §305e (2000).
Federal regulations make benefits available to state-recognized tribes.  For example, the Department of Health and Human Services provides direct funding for Community Services Block Grants for “organized groups of Indians that the State in which they reside has determined are Indian tribes. An organized group of Indians is eligible for direct funding based on State recognition if the State has expressly determined that the group is an Indian tribe.”  45 C.F.R. § 96.44(b) (2006); see also 45 C.F.R. § 96.48(c) (2006) (Community Services Block Grants for low-income home energy assistance includes state-recognized tribes as eligible participants).  The Department of Health and Human Services also administers the Native American Programs that promote economic and social self-sufficiency for Native Americans and defines an “American Indian or Indian” as “ any individual who is a member or a descendant of a member of a North American tribe, band, Pueblo or other organized group of native people who are indigenous to the Continental United States, or who otherwise have a special relationship with the United States or a State through treaty, agreement, or some other form of recognition.”  45 C.F.R. § 1336.10 (2006).  
States have the authority to recognize Indian tribes as long as there is no conflict with federal laws.  There is no conflict between Tennessee’s recognition law and federal laws.  Currently, Tennessee laws do not provide any direct benefits to Indian tribes that are recognized by the State pursuant to Tenn. Code Ann. § 4-34-103(6).  They do provide benefits to Indian individuals by making them eligible to receive scholarships, grants, or any other benefits afforded to minorities from the University of Tennessee system, the board of regents system, or any Tennessee school system.  Tenn. Code Ann. § 4-34-201 (1994).  The statute defines “Native American” as “an individual recognized as Native American by a federally recognized tribe or a state.”  Id.  As discussed, supra, federal programs do provide benefits to Indian tribes recognized by states. 
The federal government does not have the sole right to recognize Indian tribes.  Congress has acknowledged that states have the power to recognize Indian tribes by extending benefits and
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rights to state-recognized tribes.  The State of Tennessee has the authority to recognize Indian tribes, so as long as there is no conflict with federal laws.  

ROBERT E. COOPER, JR. Attorney General and Reporter
MICHAEL E. MOORE Solicitor General
SOHNIA W. HONG Senior Counsel
Requested by:
Michael L. Kernell House of Representatives Suite 38, Legislative Plaza Nashville, TN 37243-0193

Something about Alabama's laws --
http://law.justia.com/codes/alabama/2015/title-41/chapter-9/article-26/

CONCLUSION

I so hated the need to write this! I KNOW many probably most – enrolled Cherokee realize so many people never signed up for Dawes. I post this only to make them know that there is a hate group out there. Had they limited themselves to hating on and lying about others -- who knows, I might have been foolish enough to have joined with them. Who knows, hmmm? There are a lot of fakes though. That is what makes it so hard for me to decide to support the State Recognized Tribes! But they DO fulfill a need for people whose tribe won't even acknowledge that they exist.

Turn the Cherokee Gestapo into Something Better, Part 2 of 4

Please read the previous blog entry and this one together. Then go on to parts three and four.

http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/controversy-of-fake-indians.html and http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/dna-proof-of-ancesty.html
and http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/09/there-should-be-better-way.html .

They document a nightmare I have recently been subjected to.  Newton’s Third Law of Motion states basically that for every action there must be an equal and opposite reaction for the system to remain in equilibrium. I guess this is my “reaction” to those Cherokee Gestapo I recently ran into.

Cherokee Gestapo

Most Cherokee people are better than this.  You shouldn't insult your separated cousins like these folks do! You are BETTER than these bitter angry people who lure people to a website and then call them names and lie about them. You are BETTER people than this!

I'll be adding a little bit of information here as time permits, over the next few weeks.

After running into these people online, my opinion concerning  under documented Cherokee has changed 180 degrees. These "Gestapo" are SERIOUS and they are an arrogant and a hateful bunch.

I’ve just had a terrible week being interrogated by them. I went to their site because I wanted to understand why they hated the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama, recognized in Alabama as Cherokee.  For several days I conversed mostly with one person I'll call "Y" for the moment. I had thought I made myself clear. I asked "Y" if I could share some of the material she shared for my blog that she had written, and she responded “yes”. Fine, I still thought we were doing fine. Then she asked me to have my genealogy performed by “real” genealogists. This was my first sign of trouble. I already had done my genealogy, had worked on it for over 20 years, and I already knew everything they would find. I tried to help and mention my ancestors at first, and I told them the lines that went back to the Cherokee and also I mentioned there was some Catawba but I didn’t say which line.

The genealogy records are sketchy and they knew that before they started. However the photographic evidence is unmistakable, as is the DNA evidence. The Cherokee line, photos, DNA,  et cetera, go straight down the Brown/Guess surnames lines.

What did they choose to research? They looked into my Hawkins line, and the Richey’s mostly. It is possible the Hawkins line has American Indian, but I never mention them as such. My Joshua Hawkins was in jail in Huntsville, Texas for a year in the late 1850s I believe, maybe 1860. There is a record of this. In that record it also says he was born in Cherokee County, Alabama. Since the 1860 census has his birth about 1835, that means he was born in the Cherokee Nation, 3 or 4 years or so before final removal. That is evidence of a possible Cherokee connection, but because we have no family story about Cherokee on the Hawkins side, I didn’t even mention it in my own research as possible having any Cherokee connection.  This group of  genealogists never seemed to grasp the difference between “evidence” and “proof”. That is, if something wasn’t “proof”, they would declare that it also was not “evidence”.

The fact that he was in the Cherokee Nation as a baby is “evidence” that he might be Cherokee. But it is not “proof” as there were also many “intruders” upon the land as well, and as I said we have no family stories of the Hawkins’ being Cherokee, I did not mention them as I did the Brown and Guess lines. Here is the only family photo I have ever seen of my grandpa Noah Hawkins, son of Joshua, the man who was in prison for a year. Joshua’s wife was a Byrum, and photographic evidence shows them VERY fair skinned. Dad said he saw his grandma (Byrum) Hawkins once and said (quote as I never forgot it) she was a “great big red headed woman”. Here’s the only picture we have of Noah Hawkins, son of Josh and  Eliz (Byrum) Hawkins.

Noah Hawkins (1877-1957) is my grandpa and I never met him. He is the man with the butchering knife in his hand. This was during the Dust Bowl era. I was told the man next to him was a neighbor. I was told his name but I forgot it. I was also told if someone helped in the butchering process they'd be given a part of the meat. The elderly man is Jeff Richey, He would have been maybe 1/4th or 1/8th Catawba. His wife, Josephine Brown, was where we have always been told we get our Cherokee blood. Jeff was Noah's father-in-law. Since the sun is shining on Noah and his neighbor equally, it does appear Noah is of a darker complexion than his neighbor. It was Noah's father whose prison record was almost forgotten, but was discovered a few years ago that says was born in Cherokee County, Alabama, which at the time of his birth, didn't exist. It was part of the Cherokee Nation.

Again, since they brought up the fact my great grandpa had been in prison for a year, a fact that had nothing to do with my genealogy. A friend said they sort of gloated over it – well, that’s the only reason I bring this up. There are other things I would have brought up, about both my Guess/Gist and Brown ancestors  too, had they been less judgmental.

They also chose to look at my Richey’s. I mentioned to them that Joseph Richey married Sarah Ann Wayland and both died young. They were putting other Richey’s as the parents of my ancesrtor. They never looked at our Wayland’s. Had they done so, they’d have seen that my Wayland ancestors helped organize the first Protestant Church in Indian Territory (when Indian Territory included much of Arkansas). It was along the White River in 1815 and predated Dwight Mission by three years. Had they checked the Wayland’s they’d have seen two of them, Jarred and James -- were members of Bean’s Rangers, one of three ranger units that were the first soldiers stationed at Ft. Gibson abt 1832 when it first opened up.  Had they looked deeper, they’d have seen Joseph Richey, great grandpa’s father, they one that died young, served in the military at Fort Gibson also, during 1846-1847. He is the man with the mixed-blood Catawba wife, Sarah Ann Wayland. Jarret and James Wayland were her first cousins. They were also first cousins of each other. This bunch showed me a photo of some Richey’s and tried to tell me – “Look at your Richey ancestors! They’re White!!" My response was "Why shouldn’t they be white? I have no idea who was in that picture, but it wasn’t my direct line." Any Richey’s not from the bunch that married into the Catawba or Cherokee would have been PURE Caucasian. Mine did both and that kept us a little darker skinned for an extra two generations, as those old photos prove. Had they researched deeper yet, they’d have seen that the Waylands go back to the Melungeon’s along the Tennessee/Virginia Border in the 1790s. These Melungeons were also called at one time “the friendly Indians”. One man (Dr. Richard Carlson, PhD; "Who's Your People") wrote a dissertation for his PhD on them, and traced them back to Fort Christanna and the Saponi Indians there. The Saponi were a band of the Eastern Siouans, whose largest representative was the Catawba. But this group of "genealogists" never looked at my Wayland's. They missed that. However they were searching for Cherokee so I can let that pass.

I showed them a half a dozen photographs, and they said photos were useless (only using more vulger language). I specifically chose these photos because a few of them showed names that could be mapped to faces. They even replied “Only one of the photos looks American indian.” Well all of them I showed them showed dark complexion and other traits, but that was quite a revelation coming from this bunch. They ADMITTED an ancestor of mine “looked American Indian”!  All the photos I shared with them are shown in the previous blog entry. Please look at them. So I thought they still might be fair. Boy was I mistaken.

I showed them some (not all) of my DNA evidence, showing the location of the segments where my DNA, on all 23 chromosomes, was of American Indian origin. There was also some sub-Sahara African DNA popping up in a couple of locations, as well. I was told “That doesn’t mean s***!" When they told me they didn’t find Cherokee ancestors on the two lines they searched, I reminded them that I had already told them there was no known Cherokee ancestry on those lines. When I mentioned this as a reminder, I knew full well about that prison record recording my ancestor’s place of birth as Cherokee County, Alabama. But I kept it to myself. Without family stories about him saying that he had Cherokee blood, I didn’t think I had enough circumstantial evidence on him, so I didn’t mention him.  They compared our names with names on prominent rolls. Again, the only rolls I expected my family to be on was the Reservation Rolls. One ancestors name was “John Brown” and he lived two doors down from “William Brown” in Alabama, and there was a John and William Brown who received reservations near one another in southeastern Tennessee, Hamilton County. There was a second John Brown in Northern Alabama -- his descendants were on the rejected rolls. Are the two men named “John Brown” related who lived just a few miles from one another? I don’t know. There’s a Hartwell H. Houston who signed up for the Miller-Guion rolls on their Freedmen’s Cherokee project, Miller Application #17703. He said his father was Almond Joiner who was part Creek. He said Cherokee John Brown had a daughter named Anna from one of his slaves. Anna was wife of Almond Joiner/Joyner. Well another descendant of this same Joiner/Joyner family married my great-great grandma’s half-sister. My great great grandma, Harriet Guess/Gist, married a son of John Brown named David Brown. The Miller-Guion report said they couldn’t find this John Brown “with any degree of certainty” on the 1835 roll, and therefore this man’s application was rejected. But as a reservee, he wasn't living in the Cherokee Nation any more. But that’s the only roll record that I can say with certainty belonged to someone associated with my family. These Joiner/Joyner’s were listed as “Mu” on census records in Tennessee (Bedford County I think, I might have forgotten). 

Two descendants of a man named John Brown married half-sisters. Also circumstantial evidence. In a court of law, an abundance of evidence eventually can be determined to be proof, and a man can go to prison because of it. I have tons of circumstantial evidence. That plus DNA PROOF and photographic evidence could be considered enough evidence for a court of law. But this bunch claims they found “no evidence”. They confuse “evidence” with “proof”.  Each point of EVIDENCE I showed them wasn’t PROOF alone, so they considered it to be NOT EVIDENCE, which was wrong – IT WAS EVIDENCE! Had they said it was evidence, just not proof, I might have agreed with them as that is what I have always maintained. There’s TONS of evidence.  And there is PROOF in the DNA reports I received, but they refused to acknowledge it as "proof" or "evidence" either.

These people looked mostly and the Hawkins and Richey surnames, and walked on. As for the Guess surname, we do have a little paperwork with the name of my g-g-g- grandma named “Rachel Guess”, b. 1790s died after 1840. They dismissed that, too. They NEVER asked me for advise as to where to look, and since they were being so rude, nasty and so arrogant, I quit cooperating with them. On the paperwork we have she already had four children when she married her second husband. She later married a third time. She might have kept her maiden name and it might have been Guess – but we just don’t know. When you read Hartwell Houston’s application you see these people’s names often had nothing to do the surname of the father or husband.

They wrote me down as a “fraud” despite telling me one ancestor’s photo looked American Indian, and despite my undisputable DNA proof. After declaring me a “fraud” Mr./Ms. "Y" asked me if I was going to be "her ally?" I responded by saying on the day they accepted science in the form of DNA test results, on that day I would become their ally.  I left their website and didn’t return to it until I was told they’d copied my membership card in the state recognized Echota Tribe of Alabama onto their site without asking my permission to do so. That with the insults calling me "wannabe", "fraud", et cetera, and I'd had enough. I asked them to delete it because they didn’t ask permission. They ignored me. I put some of "Y's" words on a blog entry, but first I asked permission, and "Y" agreed. 

I could write three or four more pages of circumstantial evidence, but you get the gest of it. Oh one more thing, I recall reading she wrote there were sixteen groups like hers – looking for frauds. I told her I’d like to talk to all sixteen. Those names were not forthcoming. I’m still waiting. In the days since this happened, I have heard from a dozen or more people who were treated in the same manner by these Cherokee Gestapo. If your ancestor didn’t sign up for Dawes, they treat you like garbage. They have proven the need for state recognized Cherokee.

Stories

These people run the
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Echota-Cherokee-Tribe-of-Alabama/117357264992657
website on facebook. They lure  people there, and then turn on them. I have heard from many people. I would feel guilty even naming the criminals who run that facebook website. But just because they have no decency doesn't mean I should act as they do.  However if they keep putting up lie after lie about me on their website I will name names. I suspect they will continue to write lies about me and I'll have to change my policy. It seems childish. They have no guilt in shaming others, but I am not like that. I have told you of my experience with them. Here are few examples of people’s experiences with this group.
First story –
Person 1 --  "My gripe is with [X] and [Y]."
Person 2. --  "I think that qualifies you..lol. I really don't think it's funny though. Do you have these confrontations on your fb.page ?"

Person 1 -- "No, I battled them on the Echota Cherokee tribe of Alabama, Facebook website. It is still up if you click on the right links on that site. How dare they tell me i am not Cherokee. My family is talked about in the Book "Unhallowed Intrusion". I am a xxxxxxxxxxxxxx recipient -- which means the lineage was reviewed by a Federal Judge. I have more Cherokee in me than [Y]. I fought them because I did not like how they treated [name] . They kept calling [him/her] [insulting name]. This [person] had done 25 years of research on [his/her] family lineages. I do not like how they treated Vance (that’s me – they know this is my blog so there’s no point in trying to hide my identity). They even dug up the trash that one of his ancestors had been to prison. And then posted that on the internet. [X] . . .  they were not on the Dawes roll. It is my understanding that [name] has filed a lawsuite against these people. They need to be taught a lesson. You do not do what they do to people. It is defamation of Character. They tell you that you have to learn proper Cherokee heritage from them and not a vulture Culture club. I would rather [qwerty] on myself than learn a damned thing from them. They are disgrace to the Cherokee Nation at a whole. I will go to the Eastern Nation and learn what i can to better the Echota. At least I have some relatives there with the same family surnames.At least I have some relatives there with the same family surnames. I am not eligible for CNO enrollment, as only one family member went there. The rest stayed in Georgia hiding in plain sight. I am not eligible for enrollment in the Eastern Nation even though  . . . my [ancestor] had Baker Rolll Number-though contested . . . He did not live in North Carolina at that date and time.

Person 1 -- "PS Bob Blankenship knows much about my family and even told me were to my ggg Grandfather's relatives in Catoosa Oklahoma in yyyyyyyyy Cemetary...."

Person 3 -- "They said one of my ancestors had been to Prison? Was it zzzzzzzzzz ? Did they show that the census records put his birth at 1834 or 5, and that those prison records said he was born in Cherokee County, Alabama?" [note: census records just say b. Alabama. That prison record is the only record we have of where exactly, he was born in Alabama.] He appears on only 2 census records, 1860 and 1880.  He was in prison for only about one year late 1850s, and was never in trouble again for the rest of his life. Cherokee County was in the heart of the Cherokee Nation at the time of his birth, he would have been just a very small child at the time of the removal. I never even claimed him a possible Cherokee before. I only mention this here because of the way they treated me. We have never found a record of just who his parents were. They are nowhere to be found."

Second Story – 

Person 4. – " “Z” contacted me last year. She was cool and understanding of what she claims undocumented Cherokee. This year though she and her group confronted me on my wwwwwwwwww page. She was angered at me when I told her what I thought of her. She then sent my personal fb. page to her Cherokees that are fake fb. page and distorted my identity. She said that I was the Chief of the vvvvvvvvv  and other distorted rubbish. I photoed these postings of the Cherokee Gestapo group. Just like “A”."

Person 5 -- "She's my #1 hater and was contacted by my ex who is [name of state recognized tribe]. He works with them unfortunately. He got them on me."

[Vance’s note: this group claims they don’t work with state recognized tribes, or that ALL state tribes are phoney. But here is a state recognized American Indian who they apparently allow to work with them.]

Person 5 -- " “B”, “C”, “D”  are just a few haters."

Person 6 -- "Yes I know “B” and “D”. “B” and “D” were kicked off my friends uuuuuuuuu FB group (Native DNA discussion group).

Person 7 -- "E" is another hateful person from that group."

There was another comment where someone commented saying “Z” was once suspended from using facebook for a month because of making telling false statements about various people, and he/she received too many complaints.

Third story

Person 8 --  "I do not even know if we the Echota or they the CNO Gestopo put up the Echota Face book page. I tried to get there to help [person 9] and was blocked. The more I tried the more I was directed away from the site while [person 9]  was battling them.... So seems that the Gestopos have put that facebook page up to trap people inquiring about the Cherokee heritage. Thus they can tell everyone they are white and thus they do not want anymore Cherokee that they might have to share some money down the road....The Gestopo may have deleted comments from the site?"

Person 8 --  "I'm pretty sure they are like the trap door spider, vermin that sit back and wait for a nibble, trying to catch the unsuspecting. Yeah I can't find most of my comments any more, either."

Fourth Story

Here is a very telling story -- more proof they don't care about facts. They believe that if someone belongs to a state recognized tribe, you are fake.

Person Ten --  "This proves my Indian ancestry . ABCD EFGH was the brother of my ancestor ZXCD EFGH and they were the sons of DEFG, a well known Cherokee  in the area of DEFG Station, now a part of Chattanooga."  --

This member of the state recognized Echota Tribe of Alabama then provides a document which says: “# 0000; Action: Admitted; Name: XXXXXX and 4 children; Residence: Vian, Oklahoma.

“Reason: Applicant’s grandfather, ABCD EFGH was enrolled in 1835 in Tennessee. It appears that about 1850 the family moved west, some of them residing in Mo., and some of them in Arkansas. For this reason they were not enrolled either by Chapman in the East or Drennan in the west. Several of the younger generation were enrolled as Cherokees and have received allotments while others have not been so enrolled and allotted but they were recognized as being of Cherokee Indian descent, and there is no reason why they should not have been allotted if they had made the effort. . . . taken March 15, 1909.”

Lianna Elizabeta Costantino – "[one person] and Person 10 are FRAUDS who hang with a culture vulture club, none of whom are Cherokee."
When shown the document transcribed above, she replied, "This is a singular document, presented here out of context and disconnected to you as such on Facebook. Therefore, it is nothing but an unsubstantiated claim here, and does not negate all of the wannabe antics I have seen you get up to on Facebook  . . ."

[my note: I couldn't help but see the similarity between this man's story and my family's story. We also left the east in 1848 and other family members showed up in Arkansas before 1860. We also lived not far from Vian for a while after 1872.] This man's documents even say had his family made the effort to enroll, they would have been accepted. I am reminded about what mama told me about dad's grandparents. Dad's family lived next to his maternal grandparents farm, and on the other side lived mama and her siblings and parents. mama told me that Dad's grandparents started to sign up for Dawes, but "something happened" and she didn't know what it was -- but they never filled out the paperwork and it was never turned in.

Fifth Story

Here is one of several hateful comments I have received, because of this posting. The guy in the photo below, wearing the ribbon shirt, said the following. This sounds like something only a "wannabe" would say, doesn't it?
" . . . an authentic Ribbon Shirt, just like the type one would wear to an authentic Stomp Dance such as the Green Corn at an authentic Stomp Grounds. You know.... the type that Non Cherokee are not invited to." 
[note: I'd love to respond, but that'd make me (someone called me a "grouchy" old man) look just like him. His words speak for themselves. Okay I will respond. I've been to several Stomps and I have NEVER seen anyone wear a ribbon shirt at one - NEVER! I've seen overalls and cowboy hats, but NO ribbon shirts, yet.]

He added; "Now that other guy looks just like someone that was very rude trying to demand that the Cherokee Nation enrollment office had to enroll him simply on his alleged DNA evidence."

[note: What? I NEVER asked ANYONE to become a member of the Cherokee Nation! I am 64 years old, and have known criteria for memberhip most of that time, and I knew we're are not eligible probably before Ribbon Shirt Guy was born. I talk about him because he, being mostly White, is just a hypocrite to talk of others like he does.

He was one of a crew of 10 or 15 who lured me to a post and then just started insulting me. So I feel no guilt in talking about one of them. I have tried to turn the tables on them, and lured them to my blog where I can control it a little, not much, but a little. I’m just usig the same tactic they use, but admitting it, not trying to hide it, like they do. Maybe if they can see what they are doing to others, they’ll show their victims just a little more respect. They are trying to turn Federally enrolled Cherokee against others who are recognized by states. So they say ANYONE recognized by states are fakes and wannabes. And maybe I will get sick of being insulted and lied about, I don’t know.  I do have high blood pressure, so if they keep up posting these lies, maybe high blood pressure will get me.

Ol' Ribbon Shirt added; "It's not like he didn't know any better either. Just some kind of Victim Complex or something. I wonder what the Ex Con went to Prison for? Con Artist, Dope Peddler, Child Molester? Who knows with this sick SOB?"
 

There is one member of that hate group who does seem to be a little more fair than the others. Even one of his own group followed him up by saying; “I believe the intake sheet said Theft”


It is obvious that by the way Ol' Ribbon Shirt worded this he was trying to give the impression that I was a criminal and that I had gone to prison. My response is that I have NEVER been to jail, never been tried either. Comments like this are why I felt the need to create these three blog entries. I started wanting to write a simple blog entry. I wanted to know why the Cherokee Nation hated State Recognized tribes, and ended up being viciously attacked. Here is my copy of a document where my ancestor went to jail. It OBVIOULY was dated 1858 -- he saw it and STILL told his lie. After he said this, I will mention his name and not just avoid it -- Chris Whitmore. Furthermore, below is the document he certainly saw and he KNEW it was 150 years old and wasn't me when he pretended that it was me. Damned lying hypocrite!

Look for "Joshua A Hawkins". Under "nativity" it says Alabama. Under residence it says "Cherokee County, Alabama". Per 1860 and 1880 Texas census records he was born either 1834 or 1837. But again, I have never thought he might be Cherokee. We have no family stories suggesting he was mixed-Cherokee. But who am I to say, these Cherokee Gestapo tell me written records are better than family stories, so . . .

So when Ribbon Shirt wrote about me saying; "It's not like he didn't know any better either. Just some kind of Victim Complex or something. I wonder what the Ex Con went to Prison for? Con Artist, Dope Peddler, Child Molester? Who knows with this sick SOB?" 

He had seen the document saying it was an ancestor of mine who was jailed in 1858 for “theft”. He knew it wasn’t ME! He doesn’t even know people don’t wear ribbon shirts to Stomps. And he does look a lot Whiter than my Uncle Hoten. But since he’s “documented” and grandma’s brother isn’t, Uncle Hoten would have been called a “wannabe” by this group at that White guy, Chris Whitmore, wearing  the ribbon shirt for a photo op -- was the Cherokee. Hmmm . . .

This is the type of material they say on a regular basis to others – then they pretend to be innocent. I have copied and pasted every comment they have said to me so that if and when (and they will)  they delete it, I still have copies of all the hate mail I have received (it amounts to pages). And why? Just because I got curious and wondered why they hated state recognized American Indians. They don’t realize THOUSANDS were left off the rolls, or on or near the East Coast, no roll was ever created for them and their descendants.

This is the type of material they say on a regular basis to others – then they pretend to be innocent. I have copied and pasted every comment they have said to me so that if and when (and they will)  they delete it, I still have copies of all the hate mail I have received (it amounts to pages). And why? Just because I got curious and wondered why they hated state recognized American Indians. They don’t realize THOUSANDS were left off the rolls, or on or near the East Coast, no roll was ever created for them and their descendants

This person KNOW my ancestor, NOT me, was in jail for “theft” and HE KNEW IT when he wrote what he said. Ribbon Shirt deliberately LIED whereas I have always been honest.

And this “prison time” was for my great grandma. I was b. 1952, dad was b. 1915, grandpa was b. 1877 and his daddy, they one who went to jail for I think it was a year, maybe one and a half years – I forget. He was Joshua Hawkins, b. 1835 or 1837, depending on whether you believe the 1860 or the 1880 census, the only 2 census records he is on. In fact we never have discovered who his parents were.  The interesting thing about him is that I have always believed they were “White” before grandma and grandpa married in 1904 in Loco, on the western edge of the Chickasaw nation, -- it ran right up to the Comanche Nation. Grandma’s family’d lived there since the late 1880s (Indian/Pioneer Papers, look up Oscar Richey, one of grandma’s brothers). 

Got off tract, sorry. Yall found his prison record. Since I’ve been researching this for over 20 yeyars and they were looking at my family for the first time in their lives, all they found was the superficial easy to find relatives – but it is the hard to find ones that were American Indian, a fact proven by DNA evidence.  Off tract again – Jesus, don’t let me get distracted. In Joshua’s prison record it says he went to jail for a year (maybe 2 at most?) about 1858 or 9 for a minor theft and he went to Huntsville Prison in Texas. In that same record it says – in more detailed records than you might find online (maybe it’s there, I really don’t know) it says he was born in Cherokee County, Alabama. Now I am not sure there was a Cherokee County in 1835 or 1937 as that county was in the Cherokee Nation. I know the Intruders had poured into the Cherokee like a swarm of locusts, by the mid/late 1830s. So since we have no family story of him being mixed Cherokee, I never even considered those Hawkins’ as possibly being Cherokee! I might have casually considered it, but I kept that to myself, never mentioning it in public. To this day even though we have a record saying he was born in a county that was part of theh Cherokee Nation at the time of his birth. I to this day think he was probably White. THAT’S how tough I am on my own family and in my genealogical research.

I could share a dozen or more such stories about this group. All I hope to get out of this is a nicer bunch of interrogators -- turn these Cherokee Gestapo in the into something better.

Educational Game

I think this should be fun. One of these is a person is the great Uncle of a man who has DNA PROOF of having American Indian ancestry, but is not on the rolls, so he has been called a “wannabe”. The other guy says he has documented proof of Cherokee ancestry in the rolls. Just by looking, can you tell me which is the “Wannabe” and which has “documentation” in the Cherokee rolls?

Oh, I forgot, the guy with documentation goes around calling others (including me) a “WANNABE”

I decided to add a picture of grandma's brother, Uncle Hoten, taken 1909-1910.  I got so much hate mail, I felt I needed to post this as well. I asked people to look at the photos I already had up, but these people didn't do it. So here it is again. I have also had people tell me I was faking photographs. So here (below) is the original. It was taken from a school photograph 1909-1910.

If you look at the last 2 rows of kids attending this school, they are listed together, or they say “so and so behind so and so”. Read the names. You’ll see “Ida May ?W? behind Holton Richey.” To the right of them it says “Reecie Wade (blurred) behind Thomas Stanford.” Notice the blurred face behind and to the right of only one person on the bottom row who looks like he might be full blood Indian. It is grandma’s brother, and if yall are gonna tell me he isn’t Native American, well I just don’t see how ya could miss it. I suspect the only reason yall are going to such lengths to lie about us it that a year and a half ago I joined the state Recognized “Echota Band of Alabama Cherokee”. Hoten was grandma’s younger brother, and we always called all her brothers and sisters “Uncle” or “Aunt” even though they were our great uncles and great aunts. We always had Richey family reunions at Lake Quanah Parker in the Wichita Mountain Wildlife Refuge. Today they don't allow camping, but when I was a child it was common. I think Hoten, no I’m pretty sure, his family lived up around Chickasha. A mixed race person could put down any race and most mixed race people who could put down “White” on census records would do it. Why are yall act so surprised to hear that? I know yall found Uncle’s Hoten and Otho on the 1900 census because I remember yall finding that. Another of grandma’s brothers is on the top row. He died of the flu in an epidemic in 1918 I believe the year was. Please know I couldn’t have faked these photos, as the same photo is found in a book on the history of Tillman County, Oklahoma, Vol. 2 I think.

The Delimma of the Unenrolled American Indian, Part 1 of 4

The Delimma of the Unenrolled American Indian

It never occurred to me I'd uncover anything beyond the ordinary when I started this project. My little project to try to learn just why the Cherokee Nation hated state recognized organizations has taken a disturbing turn. It has ended in discovering some people who would go to any lengths to discredit others. It is sad because there ARE fakes and phonies, but these people are looking for them in the wrong places. This is the first of four blog entries on this topic. I never thought I'd be the person doing this. A decade ago I might have been on the other side of this issue. Parts two, three, and four are found here, respectively --   http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/cherokee-gestapo.html,  http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/dna-proof-of-ancesty.html, and  http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/09/there-should-be-better-way.html

Heres a photo's of Grandma, and school photo's of two of her brothers.

School photos of 2 great uncles

blow up of 2 of dad's uncles, grandma's brothers taken 1909-1910. Here's uncle Otho Richey

And here's uncle Hoten Richey, both taken from that school picture --

I remember occasionally when I was a child people would ask Dad if he was Indian. His response was always the same. He’d say, “Oh, I have a little Indian blood, not much.” I remember asking dad (1915-1992) about his Indian blood, and he’d start by talking about the Dust Bowl in the 1930s. He talked about him and several other boys going out to west Texas to pick cotton. He said they took turns riding on the running board, as the model T was full.  Dad was born here in Oklahoma, and I can trace my first ancestor in Oklahoma back to about 1832. Dad said the other boys teased him about being Indian, and he gave an example. They sometimes worked with Mexicans in the cotton fields. His friends, those boys travelling with him, would warn the Mexicans, saying, “You better watch Alphie (dad), He’s Indian. Be careful around him.” Of course dad was harmless. Dad also talked about when he was in the army during WW2, and his Army buddies gave him the nickname "Chief”, when talking to him and he kind of liked that. I once told this story online, and someone was wanting to correct me saying Dad wasn’t a chief . . . blab bla bla. Well of course he wasn’t! I knew that! It was just a bunch of guys from all over the country who thought dad was some exotic creature because he looked Indian and was from Oklahoma, so they gave him the nickname, “Chief” – that’s all. Some people think it is their job to correct what is said, some kind of “word police”. But what Dad never told his Army buddies in the 40s, or his fellow cotton pickers in the 1930s, was that he wasn’t enrolled in any tribe. Family story goes his grandparents went to sign up for Dawes as Cherokee, but something happened, no family member knows what, something upset them, and they just walked out, and didn’t sign up. So we’re not on the accepted or the rejected rolls.

Dad passed away in '92 and mama in 2002. When she passed away, I found 2 of dad's old drivers license in a file cabinet, and brought them home.

It’s not easy to be rejected by people because you’re not one thing or the other. I remember when I was about 20 years old a friend walking up to me and saying; “You look like a White Indian”. I answered right back; “Well, that’s what I am;” with some pride in my voice. But there were other encounters that I still remember to this day that were not as friendly. I’m not proud of the fact that when I was a young man I did drink too much beer, but I did. Now I haven’t drunk anything for 30 years. As I said that wasn’t always the case. Once in Lawton, Oklahoma, I was drinking in an Indian bar, and this large fullblood looked at me, then walked over to get a closer look, staring at me, got in my face, and with a loud voice said; “WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU!?” I ignored his question, and said, “Sit down, help me finish this pitcher.” Fortunately for me he did, as he was twice my size. I recall having a similar conversation with this White guy from Missouri who was also drunk, telling me how much he hated American Indians. I don’t know if he realized I was mixed-blood or not, I suspect he did though, and that was why he was doing this. Well, nothing happened that time either, he was just a loud mouth. The only reason I bring up these incidents is that a person wants a place “to belong.” I wanted to find that place, and wasn't having too much luck.

This is me -- the White Indian -- I know, I'm the one people make fun of and call "wannabe".

Looking

Once the internet came out, I started looking up genealogy sites, as I wanted to discover more about my heritage. In doing this, I became aware of many sites online calling themselves “Cherokee/Tsalagi/Chickamauga Tribe/Nation/Band of Name a State, River, or Mountain Range. These groups were all over the internet! Some of them I contacted, others just sounded weird, and I left them alone. This would have been in the 1990s. Ask people who knew me back then – I was skeptical and wary of these groups, yet I was still interested in them. I wanted “to belong”. There were times I warned people about “fake tribes”. Finially one day, after I had done research on my family, I went with a cousin, and together we travelled to where we found our ancestors in North Central/East Alabama. To my surprise there was a state recognized Cherokee tribe based in that area. There were even people who I was related to who were members of that tribe. They were known as the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama. Many more years went by, and I kept researching the origins of the Indian side of my family. I also found some family that were Catawba in the Carolinas and Virginia.

One guy who was one of the judges who determined who was a “fake Indian” and who wasn’t became friends with me on face book for a short while. I showed him old family photos, et cetera. He seemed to accept we might be Cherokee. But he remarked something, I think it was about “Freedmen” not being allowed to go to Indian hospitals. I remarked I had a friend who was a Choctaw freedman and he went to the Indian hospital in Lawton. He shot back, “No way!” He didn’t take into account that his ancestors were both freedmen and Choctaw. But my friend described himself to me as a Freedman so that’s what I said to this self-proclaimed “judge” who thinks he knows who is mixed race and who is a liar. I drove my friend to the Indian Hospital just off I-44 myself and picked him up a few hours later. And his surname was very Choctaw (Maytubby). Some of these self-proclaimed judges accept you if you sit in the background and pretend you know nothing. But the moment you speak up they jump on you without mercy. I quickly unfriended him. I don’t want everything I say to be picked apart because I forget to say something that I assume they probably already know, or because of something that they think I probably don’t know.

 Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama

There was no state or federally recognized Catawba group to which I was eligible for membership. For a long time I didn’t think I was eligible to join the Alabama state recognized tribes either, for I didn’t live in Alabama. I knew my home state of Oklahoma wouldn’t accept me – we’re not on Dawes. Like I said though, I had proof of my ancestors. Again, many years went by. Almost by accident, I received more information about this group, Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama. I knew my ancestors did live in the area where they originated. I submitted an application for membership, and I was accepted. There are NO financial benefits in joining, state recognized tribes receive no federal funding. I have been a member for under two years now, and I have few issues as of today.  I haven’t made “being Indian” a way to make money. I did write a book “Finding Our Indian Blood”, but I will never see the money I spent ($4,500) in getting it published. I can barely pay my bills and I feel the publisher took advantage of me. I think the book helped me get my state recognition, and it was worth it for that.  However I am looking all over the internet, and there are people calling the Echota Cherokee of Alabama “fake Indians”. Why? I want to get to the bottom of these threats! I take such talk as a personal insult. I firmly believe one day some members of our organization will meet with and sit down with members of the Cherokee Nation. In that day they will no longer call us “fake Indians” – I really believe this will happen. I may not be around when that day comes, I’m 64 years old, but I think it will happen. I can NOT speak for the genealogy or DNA of others, but I can humbly speak of mine. There is nothing about me that is “fake”.

This is just the beginning. I will add things as I can. Someone spoke of sixteen groups that keep a lookout for fake Indians -- here's an invitation for them to contact me vhawkis1952@msn.com or vhawkins1952@gmail.com, or 1-580-379-0144. Here's your chance to contact a member of the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama and tell me why you think I am a "fake" Indian. If you are a member of  State recognized tribe in Alabama, please feel free to respond, too. Many of these people say state recognized tribes in Alabama are worse than in other states.  I want to know why they say that.  If there is something that can be done to fix it, I want to see it fixed. But if their accusations are baseless, I want that exposed, too. If you want to criticize, please be specific, and not just some vague notion saying someone (unnamed) put us on a fraud list. I'll keep adding to this  blog entry as long as I keep finding new material, or as long as people, pro or con, send me material to post.

Response

There are groups of people dedicated to the destruction of State Recognized Tribes, especially, but not exclusively, Cherokee. I was recently in contact with one such group. I post NOTHING here that I post without permission. If the author asks me to remove it, I will. Lianna and I talked over several days and I was wanting to know and understand why they were so against State Recognized tribes or tribal organizations. I understand some groups are fraud. But I also believe that groups recognized by states should have a higher standard of rigor in determining membership than those not so recognized. I tried to remain civil and succeeded most of the time. She tried to at times as well,  but in the end, the fact that I had recently been made a member of a state recognized tribe was too much for her. You read in the first part of this report my desire "to belong" -- tired of being ridiculed for my American Indian blood and tired of being judged for claiming it.

Quotes from my facebook conversations Lianna Elizabeta Costantino 

The lady mentioned here is a spokesperson for this group and gave me permission to use her name. Here is a record of much of my interview with her.

"This is going to take yet another long answer that I have written out hundreds of times. It is exhausting.  I am very busy in real life and I will have to address this when I have some time this evening. But yes, I will tell yes, I will tell you exactly why I have said what I said and I stand by every word of it. You have a lot to learn. I hope you choose to learn it. I will try to point you in the right direction.  But it will be up to you to do the work. 

"I am a citizen of the Cherokee Nation of Oklahoma, but I have been living and working among the Eastern Band of Cherokee in Cherokee, North Carolina, for the past 20 years. I am the chair of the board of the Center for Native Health here and I spend every day working with members of all three of our tribes for our people. 

"If you genuinely have Cherokee ancestry, or even if you do not, and you wanted to be an ally, you are NOT relegated to this fraudulent group, even if you cannot prove your descendancy and join a real tribe. I will explain that later when I have time. 

 "But you should be associating with the legitimate Cherokee tribes and people and not frauds.  We will talk later. I have to get back to work right now. If I get slammed and forget, please feel free to tag me or send me a private message to remind me.

"I am a descendant of George Lowrey and Lucy Benge and others.

"The thing is, just because you "feel you should be able to claim the heritage" of being Cherokee doesn't actually mean you have a right to. 

"There are many legitimately Cherokee people who have chosen, for whatever reason, not to live in Tahlequah, OK, or Cherokee, NC. We do have fairly large communities of Cherokee people elsewhere. And for them we have satellite communities who get together. 

"And we have Green Corn, and national homecoming holiday, and Tri-Council meetings and speakers gatherings that culminate in the language consortium gatherings and all sorts of other things that we get together as legitimate Cherokee people to celebrate and reconnect.

"But you don't see any of them going around joining fake tribes. Yes, myself and others have caught many people who lie about their heritage and do ridiculous things that cause more harm than good."

Her Complaints About "Fakes"

"There is the Cherokee woman who goes around claiming to be a Cherokee medicine woman and beloved woman who has actually killed people in her fake ceremonies. 

"Then there's the guy who goes around claiming to be Cherokee and goes to Walmart dressed like he imagines Moytoy having dressed and goes to the UN to take selfies of himself as if he has a voice at the UN among Native people. Which he does not. 

"And people who go around claiming to be Cherokee and butchering our language trying to "teach" it or going to schools to "teach" about Cherokee culture when they have no idea what they're talking about, and the only thing they know about our culture as what they read in books or read online. 

"They've never been to a real stomp dance in their life. They did not grow up in the culture. And they have no right representing our people. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who would join a fake tribe such as the Echota group deserves to be caught in that net. A net full of wannabes and frauds. /////

"If you really think you have Cherokee ancestry, you should do your genealogy properly and find out." 

Her Complaints About "Fake Tribes"

"Whether you do or not, you should have nothing to do with that culture vulture club calling itself a "tribe". 

"That group is not a tribe. Seemingly you all don't even know what that word means. 

"There is a reason why the state cannot legitimately confer tribal status on a group of people. A whole bunch of reasons. And I will explain that tomorrow.

"But here it is 10:30 at night and I've had another exhausting day and I'm not going to spend any more time explaining this right now. But I will continue it tomorrow. 

"Again, this is just exhausting to have to constantly explain to people like yourself. And it's disheartening, because I don't know how many times I have wasted my time, energy and breath explaining things to people like yourself who, rather than listening and learning and turning things around to behave like an actual Cherokee or an ally at least, they usually end up screaming and yelling at me because they can't stop pretending to be something they're not. 

"They cling to that fantasy of having Cherokee ancestry even though they have not a shred of evidence for it. 

"But if I have caught people who don't deserve to be in my net, as you put it, because they genuinely have Cherokee ancestry, I would say then that they need to get away from that culture vulture club calling itself a "tribe" and connect with actual Cherokee people . . . The thing is, just because you "feel you should be able to claim the heritage" of being Cherokee doesn't actually mean you have a right to. Groups like that do more harm than good with the misinformation they spread. And they don't even realize it. Obviously they have no idea that what they are doing is doing is wrong."

Her Opinion of State Recognized Tribes

I asked her what she thought of state recognized tribes in general, and this was her response.

"I am saying that with exceedingly rare exception, there is NO State tribe that is legitimate. The Lumbee are a complete fraud. They will never gain Federal recognition for good reason. I do not need a history lesson from you in these regards. The only thing the Echota group could do to make themselves more acceptable in my eyes would be to stop claiming to be Cherokee when most of them have absolutely no evidence whatsoever to show that they are legitimately of Cherokee ancestry."        

Her Opinion of Photographic and DNA Evidence

I asked her what she thought of state recognized tribes in general, and this was her response.

"When you say all you had to do was look at your dad to know you had Indian blood, that's ridiculous. There has indeed been too much intermarriage for us in 2017 for most of us to be able to say that, unless your father is a full-blooded Cherokee, which I certainly doubt. We can't go by looks anymore. And DNA testing doesn't mean squat. Which is why none of our tribes will even look at it. The problem between you and I would be much more than which tribe you belong to. Because I have no way of knowing whether you have a drop of Cherokee or Catawba blood at all.

I asked if it was alright for me to quote her.

"You can quote anything you like from me. I really don't care. "

My Objection

When I asked her if I could quote her, she had already written everything  above that is attributed to her. Some of what she says is valid But some of it isn't. There is a lot of fakery. But she doesn't know anything about the Lumbee, and I suspect I can extrapolate that to mean she doesn't know much about the state recognition process. 

I have 5  major objections ONE -- She confuses "evidence" with "proof". I keep them separate. She says people lack "evidence" a lot but what she means is they lack "proof". There is plenty of evidence. TWO --  Census records. Many people of mixed ancestry put on census records as "White". To have put "White" on a census record proves nothing. There were advantages to being White as opposed to mixed, Indian, Mulatto, or free people of color (FPC) before the Civil War. If they got away with saying "White" most people would have said they were "White". THREE -- They say photos mean nothing. I agree  that some photos are ambiguous. But some are obvious. To be unwilling to make an educated guess is to wear blinders. To say all photos mean nothing is a statement that can not be justified. Not all photos are ambiguous. FOUR -- they deny the value of DNA testing except for in determining paternity. For some odd reason they mention that as an acceptable use of DNA evidence, but nothing else. FIVE -- I have friends who are Lumbee and what she said about them and other state recognized tribes shows a lack of knowledge about them.

Genealogy Report
I spent much of yesterday talking to some of their genealogists.  They did some good work. In fact I'd advise people to use their services as it was fast, and it was free. But there is a price. They ignored obvious things, such as DNA evidence (which is improving every day) and similar things. Some of them also gave snobby comments and were very rude at times. If you can handle the insults, it might be an interesting experience. My DNA tests said I was triracial (Including American Indian), and still these genealogists said they saw "NO EVIDENCE" that I had Cherokee blood. There was plenty of evidence. Had they said "NO PROOF" that would have been less of a . . . misstatement of facts. I would have argued that with all the circumstantial evidence as well as the DNA Proof of N.A, genetic material, we have out proof. But by choosing to ignore DNA evidence or photographs, it makes it easier to reject us. We lived on lands by Cherokee lands a lot yet they reported we didn't.  That coupled with DNA evidence and photographic evidence is convincing.  I'd hoped they would look at John Brown found on the Reservation Rolls, and I don't think they did. If they did I didn't see it. I didn't see where they looked at what my great uncle wrote either, when coupled with what his grand daughter wrote. Oh, also there was a freedman who said he was a grandson of John Brown and a slave woman. One of his relatives married my great-great grandma's half-sister. Since my g-g-grandma married a son of a man named "John Brown" I think that that would have been relevant. The Miller-Guion people rejected him and said this John Brown wasn't on the right previous rolls, just like my family wasn't. I don't think these "genealogists"  looked at that material. They only looked an hour. I've looked over 20 years.  I mentioned many things that they ignored.
They can't seem to understand that the people they are insulting are right there listening to their insuts. Maybe saying this in public will get them to be more polite, but I'm not holdin' my breath.

Conclusion
Both the Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama and the Lumbee were insulted in this statement. I am a member of one and have friends that are the other. If anyone wants to respond, please feel free to do so. I have tried to be as objective as I can be, under these circumstances.

First Response

Someone I had never spoken to on facebook wrote the following to me, after they read what these people had said to me:

"Good morning, I have been reading your post interactions with the other members of the Cherokee Indian Research page. I've been following them for about a week and have become very disheartened. The way they attacked you is the way they've treated countless others. 95% of what I've read on there is them coming together like a pack & piling on people. I'm afraid to ask them anything. I really hope they're not representative of the majority of Cherokee. They're in complete denial of any Natives marrying in with Whites and then simply "passing", or that there were many along the way during removal that managed to break away and run off. There was such a group in Livingston Co, Ky. All the locals knew who they were and that they were hiding up in the hills. After YEARS they finally started slowly mixing in with local Whites.  . . . This group definitely has a chip on their shoulders."

Well, after posting that comment I notice Lianna went on and on, still commenting. Now I see she went to my facebook page and copied my Echota membership card and says this person is a fraud.  Why? The things I quoted were fairly kind. She keeps going on and on . . . I have really TRIED to be kind to her . . . I will ask her kindly to remove it.  Here is what she just, as I write, posted --

Lianna Elizabeta Constantino said --"I don't give a rat's patoot that you've posted your ignorant blog." 

I forwarded her links to three books that might help her learn more about the Lumbee and State Recognized tribes. -- and I did it in a very friendly manner; those three books being -- "Lumbee Indians in the Jim Crow South", by Malinda Maynor Lowery; "The Lumbee Problem, the Making of an American Indian People", by Karen I, Blu: and "The Other Movement, Indian Rights and Civil Rights in the Deep South", by Denise E. Bates. Her reply is below;

"I read books written by legitimate scholars and by Cherokee people themselves. I do not read books written by, for or about wannabes and frauds trying to steal my ancestors and culture.

That is a complete waste of my time, as speaking with you has been."

As for one of the Authors, Karen I. Blu, her book was published by the Nebraska University Press. This website says she's a retired Associate Professor of Anthropology --

http://as.nyu.edu/anthropology/people/faculty/retired-and-emeritus-faculty-/karen-i--blu.html

As for a second of the three authors, Denise E. Bates, PhD, she’s an Assistant Professor of History, at Arizona state University per https://www.linkedin.com/in/denise-e-bates-ph-d-2550588

The third author, Malinda Maynor Lowery, is also well known in the academic world . It says of her here, the following:

http://history.unc.edu/people/faculty/malinda-maynor-lowery/

Associate Professor, Director, Southern Oral History Program; AB Harvard 1995, MA Stanford 1997, MA University of North Carolina 2002, PhD University of North Carolina 2005.

When she said she only read books by “legitimate scholars”. Well, that speaks for itself.

She then went and stole my membership card and put it up on her facebook page. If she takes down all will be forgiven on my part.  I noticed yesterday, 20 August 2017, it looks like they have deleted our entire conversation.