There Should Be A Better Way, Part 4 of 4

There’s a much better way for the Cherokee Nation to deal with mixed race Cherokee who are not eligible for tribal membership than to stalk them and harass them and call them “wannabes,” like they did to me. What they did to me should be illegal.

This is the fourth and hopefully my last report on this topic. Please read the previous three before this one. http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/controversy-of-fake-indians.html,
http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/cherokee-gestapo.html, and
http://vancehawkins.blogspot.com/2017/08/dna-proof-of-ancesty.html .

Most Cherokee Nation people are far nicer that those I recently ran into. I remember someone who was a Cherokee genealogist I ran into about two and a half years ago who didn’t yell at me, did not call me “wannabe”, or “fake”, or “phoney”. Some who did NOT call me crazy or “off my meds”. The earlier experience was a much more pleasant experience. I hope the Cherokee Nation discovers the tactics these bad genealogists are using and makes them behave move civil.

When this recent bunch of bad “Cherokee Genealogists” bushwhacked me a month ago, they kept insulting me and one girl said; “I hope you don’t find any connection to the Cherokee – he’s [talking about me] a member of the “Echota Tribe of Alabama” to the rest of the group before they even started their search. As a person who understands scientific methodology, that one sentence guarantees a bias on their part. It guaranteed their results should be voided.

They started calling me names, before they had looked up anything. After 5 or 10 minutes of that I just got off the computer practically crying at all the insults I heard that came at me 100 miles an hour. I later found out they declared I was a “wannabe” – I was faking it! They said I was a phoney! I have no idea what they did or didn’t do. One person said I’d been to prison – NOT TRUE! An ancestor had been long, long ago, for a year and this person, Chris Whitmore, KNEW IT when he said that! He should be in jail for saying that!

1.      Conversation

It was only later that I remembered far more pleasant conversation I’d had 2 and a half years earlier with another more reasonable and a more responsible Cherokee genealogist. Had this group been a friendlier bunch I would have remembered it sooner.

[note: I conversed with “Cherokee Nation Genealogist”, referred to as “CNG” hereafter, via messenger, over two and a half years ago. I forwarded several photos as well, but see no need to repeat them here.]

05/02/2015 3:42pm

Vance --

howdy CNG, Well if you want to help me with genealogy, I can give you some material I suppose. Thanks. I can start with dad was A. O. Hawkins, 1915, b. farm near Manitou, Tillman Co., Ok-1992 d. Altus, Jackson County, Ok. His mother was Loney Richey, b. Lewiston, Denton Co., Tx 1883 per delayed birth certificate. [She] m. Noah Hawkins 1904 Loco, Pickens District, Chickasaw Nation,. d. near Manitou, Ok 1963) Her parents were Jeffrey Richey (b. Ark, 1851 d. 1926 Tillman Co., Ok) and Josephine Brown (b. Ark 1854, m. to Jeff 1872. d, Tillman Co., Ok 1932. Per great uncle [Oscar Richey] in Indian/Pioneer Papers, after they married [in 1872] they moved to IT near Fort Smith. Great Uncle said he didn't know if they lived in Sequoyah or Leflore Co, as he didn't know which side of the river they lived on. By 1880 they lived in Denton Co., Tx. By late 1880s moved to Chickasaw Nation. Photos are dad, dad (ww2 photo -- don't know why I saved them together) & grandma, country school, and 2 of grandma's brothers (Hoten and Otho Richey) enlarged from that school photo.

 . . .

Vance --
Lona Richey's mother was Josephine Brown. Josey's parents were David Brown and Harriet Guess/Gist. Have no photo of David, b. Al abt 1822 d. Ark May 1865. A tin-type of Harriet exists, though. Some census records say [Harriet was] b. Tn and some say Ala. She was b. abt 1817 or 8 and died 1886 Denton Co., Tx. They married 1841, Shelby Co., Tn (Memphis). Also showing tin-type of Harriet with her granddaughter my great aunt Etta, but we called her “[Ain’t] Ettie”. That baby was an elderly woman when I met her in the early 60s. I think she died in the late 60s. It was her family that preserved that old tin-type. Dad passed in 1992, and one by one so did all his brothers. I realized only a sister survived so I wrote her a letter and her reply is also enclosed. She's gone now, too.

CNG --

Is this him?

Otho C Hawkins
Birth abt 1911 in Tillman County, Oklahoma, US
2 Sources
Birth abt 1911
Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA
1 Source
Residence 1920
16 Jan Age: 9
Holton, Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA
1 Source
Residence 1930
11 Apr
Age: 19
Holton, Tillman County, Oklahoma, USA

Family Members

Parents
Noah Allen Hawkins 1875 – 
Lona Clementine Richey 1883 – 1963

Show siblings

Vance

YES! That's my family. They were always listed as White on census records. OC was dad's brother, Otho Cecil. AO stands for Alpha Omega Hawkins, called "Al" and "Alpha" [or commonly called “Alfie”] but he was said to have also been named after great uncles on both sides (the Richey and the Brown) named "Alfred". There was both an Alfred Richey and an Alfred Brown.

CNG --

ok

Vance -- 

I don't want to make claims and all -- those are family stories only -- and we are not documented as Indian -- AT ALL! I remember them saying they thought about signing up for Dawes, but got mad or upset or something, and they never signed up. David Brown's parents were John Brown and Mary (Polly) Black and can be found living on the Tennessee River near what is Decatur, Alabama, today.

Vance -- 
I hope I haven't said anything wrong. I don't make any claims -- just these are family stories and might be wrong.

CNG --
oh no … sorry i had to [personal]

CNG --
Have you seen this?
John Brown, (Cherokee) in the U.S. House of Representative Private Claims, Vol. 1
Record Image Index-only record
Name:  John Brown, (Cherokee)
Nature of Claim:         Compensation for improvement on lands relinquished
Congress:        23
Session:           1
Manner Brought:        Petition
Journal Page:   50
Referred to Committee:          Indian Affairs

Vance
No, I haven't seen that. Does it have something to do with the Reservation rolls? One of my biggest problems seems to be there were a lot of "John Browns". Which is which? Sorry to hear about [personal].

CNG --
this is the John Brown the records were connected to ........
John Brown
Birth 1795 in Unknown
Death 1855 in Walker County, Alabama, US
Birth 1795
Marriage to Mary Polly Black 1820, 23 Dec
Age: 25
Lawrence County, Alabama, USA
Alabama Marriage Collection, 1800-1969 
Residence 1840
Age: 45 

Death 1855

Age: 60
Walker County, Alabama, USA
Spouse
Mary Polly Black 1801 – 1885
Siblings
David B. Brown 1822 – 1865
Malinda Amanda Brown 1828 – 1880

Nehemiah Brown 1829 – 

Elizabeth A. Brown 1834 – 1922
Alfred L. Brown 1837 – 
Nancy Y. Brown 1840 –
Martha L. Brown 1843 – 
Orleny Brown 1845 – 1889
Cynthia Brown 1846 –

CNG -- 
John Brown in the U.S. General Land Office Records, 1796-1907
Name:  John Brown
Issue Date:      16 Oct 1835
Acres:  80.01
Meridian: Huntsville
State:   Alabama
County: Winston
Township:       11-S
Range: 7-W
Section: 25
Accession Number:     AL1300__.148
Metes and Bounds:     No
Land Office:   Huntsville
Canceled: No
US Reservations:         No
Mineral Reservations: No
Authority: April 24, 1820: Sale-Cash Entry (3 Stat. 566)
Document Number:    6954

CNG
John Brown, (Cherokee) in the U.S. House of Representative Private Claims, Vol. 1
Record Image Index-only record
Name:  John Brown, (Cherokee)

Nature of Claim:         Compensation for improvement on lands relinquished

Congress:        21

Session:           1
Manner Brought:        Petition
Journal Page:   318
Referred to Committee:          Indian A

CNG -- 
John Brown Jr in the U.S., War of 1812 Service Records, 1812-1815
Record Image Index-only record
Name:  John Brown Jr

Company:        COL. MORGAN, JR.'S, REG'T CHEROKEE INDIANS.

Rank - Induction:        PRIVATE

Rank - Discharge:       PRIVATE

Roll Box:        27

CNG -- 
this is on David Brown
Prisoner Of War
David was listed on a roll of prisoners from Corinth, Mississippi at Provost Marshal's Office  October 14, 1862. He was at the battle of Shiloh, Pittsburg Landing Tennessee; the Battle of Iuka, Mississippi on 19 September 1862, the battle of Corinth on the 3rd & 4th; Hatchie on the 5th and 6th of October.

Vance

THAT IS MY JOHN BROWN!! How did you do that? My David was at the Battle of Corinth, but I didn't know he was also at Shilo. I thought he might have been because Corinth was fought shortly after. Where/how did you find these things! That Brown family moved to Arkansas and those same names are found in later Arkansas census records. Let me see and make sure I have this right. THOSE Browns are associated with a Cherokee named John Brown? You did that so easily! I've looked for 20 plus years!!

CNG --
Sometimes you have to search by last name with the dates to many times people use nick names or the names get confused down the line in searched for my grandmother as JJJJJ for 20 years just to fall over her real name LLLLL one day

Vance
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!!! I'VE GOT TO GET A COPY OF THAT!! I can't believe it! Sorry for the upper case. I'll definitely pay you something for a copy of that material on John Brown and his family, especially where it mentions his family. That information is priceless, to me, anyhow. You can name your price. 

CNG --
No. I charge nothing. Ssend me your e-mail address and i will put it in an e-mail

Vance
vhawkins1952@msn.com. Then CNG, I am in your debt. Again thank you.

CNG
it will be coming from [email address].

Vance –
Thanks -- I had really [almost] given up on ever discovering anything else.  I'll be looking for it.

CNG -- 
ok i sent this conversation you should be able to print it out

Vance -- 
I have it. Thanks. I need to get a copy of the original. I'll be taking off work for a week next month. I have a project to work on, now. 

CNG
lol. i hope it is your family that would be so exciting

Vance

I know they will be!

CNG
i also will keep snopping a little
do you have access to the cherokee rolls

Vance

Thanks. I have access to some of them. I got frustrated because I had no way of knowing which John Brown was which. There are several of them! But you mentioned his children's names, and they are the same names we have! It will still be difficult to know which of the Brown's on the rolls are our relatives, and which aren't.

CNG
there are 3 john Brows on the 1817 reservation rolls in arkansas
but it will take some researching by you to identify them or rule them out
i am going to share with you this site

Vance
Yeah, and I think mine went to Arkansas, and also returned to Alabama. I don't know how to rule one out or where to go, beyond the rolls.

CNG
http://cherokeeregistry.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=387&Itemid=582
Cherokee Rolls
Our mission is to preserve and document the history, culture and genealogy of the Cherokee people. We provide the tools and resources with which descendants can discover and preserve their family heritage, learn more about who they are, and join together with tribal members.
cherokeeregistry.com
you check family names and compare birth dates. Too many see a name on the rolls and think that is there family without really researching it
but john and polly are on the 1817 resevation roll look for your self

Vance
So I guess John Jr would be mine, then?

CNG -- 
they may all be yours they could all be family
but that polly and that John are cherokee
and you have the land agreement in our conversation

Vance --  
And that is where they lived. [we] first discovered [them] in Northern Lawrence County, Alabama records, but later records put them further south in Winston and or Walker Counties. And the children that are mentioned in Alabama in 1850 are the same children in Arkansas census records in 1860, and they are the same children in the records that you have shown me as belonging to this Cherokee Brown family. I have usually only seen the father's name with no idea how to discover the names of the children or sometimes the wife. This changes things..

CNG -- 
awesome
I am happy i could walk a little on your journey

Vance -- 
Well so am I, CNG. Shocked and awed!  I am in your debt.

CNG --  
all you owe me is a good thought now and then lol

Vance -- 
you got it!

CNG -- 
i am here almost every day so if you have any questions feel free do send me a message

Vance --

will do.

CNG --

now you can tell [name] your family is on the 1817 reservation rolls lol

Vance --

I suspected that roll, and also suspected that is why we weren't on later rolls. It is my understanding the people on the reservation rolls agreed to assimilate and left the Cherokee Nation.

well thanks again, will talk later

CNG --

The 1817 Cherokee Reservation Roll Results

A listing of those applying for a 640 acre tract in the East in lieu of removing to Arkansas. This was only good during their lifetime and then the property reverted back to the state.

This is only an index of applicants, in most instances the people listed here did not receive the reservation they requested. We will be posting the remaining documents surrounding the Reservation Roll including a list of actual recipients in the near future.

CNG --

yes talk to you any time

05/25/2015 9:52am

2.      Condensed Version of the Above Convesation

(CNG stands for Cherokee Nation Genealogist)

CNG --

have you seen this

John Brown, (Cherokee) in the U.S. House of Representative Private Claims, Vol. 1

Referred to Committee:          Indian Affairs

John Brown, (Cherokee) in the U.S. House of Representative Private Claims, Vol. 1

Record Image Index-only record

Report issue

Name:  John Brown, (Cherokee)

Nature of Claim:         Compensation for improvement on lands relinquished

Congress:        21

Session:           1

Manner Brought:        Petition

Journal Page:   318

Referred to Committee:          Indian A

CNG --

this is the John Brown the records were connected to ........

John Brown

Birth 1795 in Unknown

Death 1855 in Walker County, Alabama, USA

Birth

1795

[Location of birth:] Unknown

1 Source

Marriage to Mary Polly Black

23 Dec 1820

Age: 25

Lawrence County, Alabama, USA

Alabama Marriage Collection, 1800-1969 - Its repeated 3 Times for each.

2 Sources

Residence 1840, Age: 45

Lawrence, Alabama, United States

Death 1855

Age: 60

Walker County, Alabama, USA

Family Members

Spouse

Mary Polly Black; 1801 – 1885

Children

David B. Brown, 1822 – 1865

Malinda Amanda Brown, 1828 – 1880

Nehemiah Brown, 1829 –

Elizabeth A. Brown, 1834 – 1922

Alfred L. Brown, 1837 –

Nancy Y. Brown, 1840 –

Martha L. Brown, 1843 –

Orleny Brown, 1845 – 1889

Cynthia Brown, 1846 –

[Note: I wonder if the last two or three names listed might have been grandchildren.]

CNG --

John Brown Jr in the U.S., War of 1812 Service Records, 1812-1815

Record Image Index-only record

Add alternate information

Report issue

Name:  John Brown Jr

Company:        COL. MORGAN, JR.'S, REG'T CHEROKEE INDIANS.

Rank - Induction:        PRIVATE

Rank - Discharge:       PRIVATE

Roll Box:        27

1840 census

The 1840 census doesn’t give the names of the spouse of children, but it gives their age. We can compare them with the record above given to me by a Cherokee Nation Genealogist, and the 1850 census So here is the record of the 1850 census.

1850 Walker County, Alabama census (followed by ages per records CNG discovered)

Mary Brown 49 NC (49)

Linday Brown 25 Ala (22)

Elizabeth Brown 16 Ala (16)

Orleny Brown 15 Ala (5)

Alfred Brown 13 Ala (13)

Nancy Brown 10 Ala (10)

Martha Brown 8 Ala (7)

Syntha Brown 4 Ala (4)

Nancy Brown (inmate) 5 Ala

Levy Brown (inmate) 3 Ala

David Brown (inmate) 1/12 Ala

So the names and dates agree very well – TIS is the family mentioned by the Cherokee Nation genealogist as the children of a Cherokee named “John Brown Jr.” listed on the Reservation Rolls. On 1860 census we discover the youngest children and the children of Linday, aka Malinda (Brown) Johnson. “Syntha” is also spelled “Cynthia”.

1840 census

John Brown 1 0 1 2 0 0 1, 0 1 1 0 1 0 1 – or

Males

0 to 5 years old – Alfred Brown (3 years old in 1840 per 1850 census)

10-15 years old – Nehemiah Brown (11 years old per CNG record)

15-20 years old – David Brown and one unknown (18 years old in 1840 per 1850 census. By the time of 1850 census, David had married and was living in Lawrence County, Arkansas)

40-50 years old – father, John Brown (I think his birth was closer to 1790 but CNG had birth abt 1795.)

Females

5-10 years old – Orlena Brown (5 years old per 1850 census)

10-15 years old – Elizabeth Brown

20-30 years old – Malinda/Linday Brown (15 years old)

40-50 years old – Mary Brown (49 years Old)

Most of the children fit except. Two males between 15-20 years old in 1840 census are not on 1850 census. One was our David as he got married and moved to Arkansas. We don’t know anything about the other one, but he could have done the same and moved off. The 1840 census lists 2 females, one from 5-10 years old and a second from 10-15. There are 2 females in those ranges, but both are 5 years old. In those days it was far more common for children to die young, or for the parents to take in orphaned cousins or neighbors. Under those circumstances, I think we have a pretty good match. Per the records found by the Cherokee Nation Genealogist, Elizabeth WAS 11 years older than Orlena, making it agree with the 1840 census records. I suspect it must then be the 1850 census records that have her age wrong.

1860 census records

In 1847 both David Brown (John’s son and my g-g- grandpa) and John Brown are listed in Alabama tax records. In 1850 census John Brown is not with the family anymore and Mary is head of household in Alabama. In 1848 David Brown is on a tax list living in Lawrence County, Arkansas. In 1860 census Mary is also in Lawrence County, Arkansas.

Mary Brown 59,

Nancy J, 19

Martha L, 16

Malinda Johnson (Linday on 1850 census), 34

Nancy 13

Levi 12

David 10

Thomas 1

Cynthia is missing. She should have been 14, but isn’t on the 1860 census. We don’t know what became of her. But these are the names of MY family, born and living in the locations where my family is found. I constantly tell people names, dates and locations are the key – they HAVE to match. In this case they do.

Continuation of Two Year Old Conversation

After conversing with those Cherokee Gestapo lunatics, I contacted the same person who’d helped me about 2 years back, who is also a CDIB card carrying genealogist. I didn’t say a thing about who had just insulted me. But I did mention I’d just been insulted. Here is much of that conversation.

Vance

I found this group of people who talked about the "Echota Cherokee Tribe of Alabama" and I had just joined them after last talking to you. They started calling me "wannabe, fake, phoney", and so on. I asked why what they had against this Alabama group. . .  I went to post on a genealogical DNA group and one member of this group shouted out – “Vance is a fake Indian, a wannabe, and he's crazy. . .” and [they] went on and on . . .I am at a loss. Why are these folks lying about me? Just very confused.

Thu 5:01am

CNG

I am not sure Vance what group was it

Thu 8:36am

Vance

When I contacted them I was just hoping to find out what the Cherokee Nation had against state recognized groups, and I got more than I bargained for. I will continue to believe more Cherokee people are like you than them. Thank you for helping me find my Brown's. Best wishes.

CNG

the struggle is a tough one ...when the nations split ...meaning when some stayed behind and chose not to go on the trail of tears they gave up the right to call themselves Cherokee and became just a citizen of the united states ...some later in 1924 fought for their right to call themselves Cherokee therefor the Baker roll was compiled and became the North Carolina band....because the others gave up the Native American citizenship  they are not nor ever will be recognized as Cherokee , and the most they can be called descendants but still have no rights.

CNG

no it is not right, but it is Cherokee politics

CNG

now state tribes do not require proof of lineage and pretty much let anyone who believes in there heart they are native to join....mostly for a monthly or yearly fee and the five civilized tribes view them as culture thieves , the states don’t mind if they claim Native because it generates state grants and revenue.....there is money in having a token Indian tribe in your state

Vance

That group I joined -- called Echota Tribe of Alabama -- do charge $45 yearly. I wish those other people I asked the same question to had been more patient, and given me more time to think about it I didn't want to offend anyone. I understand [My Cherokee ancestors] left the Cherokee Nation when they started living in Lawrence Co., Alabama, and were living as US citizens rather than Cherokee citizens. I'm 64 -- will be 65 in December, and I am not quite as healthy as I was a few years ago. I just wanted a piece of paper I could hold up and say "I'm also Cherokee" or of partial Cherokee amcestry, too." I wanted to do that while I am still alive. That's why I joined that group. . . . They just didn't give me enough time to think it through before they jumped all over me, and I got defensive.

CNG

they are considered a fake tribe

Vance

 . . . Again, thanks for talking to me in a friendly manner and not accusing me of anything. . . .

CNG

i am always here if you need me

Vance

     . . . you are very kind . . . thanks.

Documentation

Here’s the 1850 census showing my Brown’s still in Alabama.

And here are the remains of that same family in Arkansas in 1860, living in the same county as is my family, the descendants of John and Mary’s eldest son, David

Conclusion

Perhaps she does have a point. I do not know what criteria are used to determine citizenship in a state recognized tribe. I was accepted, but I am not sure which document turned the tide, and made my application acceptable. However there is NOTHING that makes the tactics they used against me acceptable. I spoke with a dozen others who said basically the same thing I say. They spoke in half-truths, told literal lies, and did everything in their power to.

I hope sincerely that they are exposed to telling lies about myself and others. I hope they change their tactics, and quit making up things about the people they investigate.

I hope a new breed of investigators will research people who have hard to find historical, genealogical, and genetic evidence supporting their claims of Cherokee ancestry. Those I ran into had no concern for facts. All they cared about was that I had recently joined a state recognized tribe, and that was enough for them to just try to make up lies about me.

But this present blog entry is also sign of hope. A Cherokee Nation genealogist found a link to my Cherokee past two years ago. There are others out there who are Cherokee who do better genealogy work than those I stumbled upon. Not everyone is out to make up lies about us. Others are sincere. It is my hope that the sincere people eventually win out over these others who are filled with hatred, who jump to conclusions prematurely, who have no business researching anything – they are way too biased for that.